Roman Ctholics: how would you reconcile these verses to your many false doctrines?

Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.


Rom 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. That each one of us is accountable to God Most High, Lord Jesus Christ, 1Peter 4:5.





False doctrines of Roman Catholics like:


1. confessing to a priest for forgiveness of sin (claiming John 20, yet those powers were given to the Apostles of Christ Jesus and can't be done by ordinary people other than the apostles).





2. Praying and asking the help of dead saints, even mary the wife of joseph (thus you're claiming the prayers of saints in Revelation yet it's all about they're asking God to avenge their persecutor, Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? ) On the other prayers, it is already written in a book , Revelation 5:6-8. The other prayers of saints is all about praising God yet did not even mentioned any prayers from them asking their kin, relatives or friends to be saved, Revelation 4:8.





3. believing in purgatory (refuted by Daniel 12:1-2; 1thessalonians 4:13-17)


4. praying to mary (refuted by Luke 1:30-51)


5. praying for the dead to be saved (refuted by Ecclesiastes 9:4-5; Romans 10:13; Romans 14:11-12)


6. and so many others like the partaking of the bread which is also refuted by (luke 22:19)


7. also baptism of infants(refuted by acts 8:37, that those who submit to baptism is only in obedience to the calling of God, meaning they're saved already before hand and how can an infant can know the Savior Jesus Christ?)





Besides, when apostle Paul still alive he admonished each one to pray without ceasing? 1Thessalonians 5:16-18, and yet how can he asked those already been dead for so long to pray without ceasing? Can you show any verses in the Holy Words of God telling the dead one to pray for their relative that still on earth?


Luk 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:


Luk 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,


Luk 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.


Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;


Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.


Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.


Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.


Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.


Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:


Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.


Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.


Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.


Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.


This is a classic example of a dead one praying and asking favor for his relatives , brothers that he knows will not able to make if no one will tell them. but did you noticed the answer of father abraham? in verse 29-31?Roman Ctholics: how would you reconcile these verses to your many false doctrines?
amen it is about the lord jesus christ not a religion or set of beliefs.Roman Ctholics: how would you reconcile these verses to your many false doctrines?
You underestimate the detailed theological arguments that the Roman church have put forward to support their heresies. Waste of time discussing them.
Don't rag on the catholics, their beliefs are just as rational as yours are.
Boy oh Boy where do I start





1/ Acts 1:15-26 - the first thing Peter does after Jesus ascends into heaven is implement apostolic succession. Matthias is ordained with full apostolic authority. Only the Catholic Church can demonstrate an unbroken apostolic lineage to the apostles in union with Peter through the sacrament of ordination and thereby claim to teach with Christ's own authority


Acts 6:6 - apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority has transferred beyond the original twelve apostles as the Church has grown.





Acts 9:17-19 - even Paul, who was directly chosen by Christ, only becomes a minister after the laying on of hands by a bishop. This is a powerful proof-text for the necessity of sacramental ordination in order to be a legitimate successor of the apostles.





Acts 13:3 - apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority must come from a Catholic bishop.





Acts 14:23 - the apostles and newly-ordained men appointed elders to have authority throughout the Church


2 Tim. 2:2 - this verse shows God's intention is to transfer authority to successors (here, Paul to Timothy to 3rd to 4th generation). It goes beyond the death of the apostles.





2/ God is the God of the living not the dead. The saints who have gone before us are alive in heaven





Eph. 3:14-15- we are all one family (';Catholic';) in heaven and on earth, united together, as children of the Father, through Jesus Christ. Our brothers and sisters who have gone to heaven before us are not a different family. We are one and the same family. This is why, in the Apostles Creed, we profess a belief in the ';communion of saints.'; There cannot be a ';communion'; if there is no union. Loving beings, whether on earth or in heaven, are concerned for other beings, and this concern is reflected spiritually through prayers for one another.


Rom. 8:35-39 - therefore, death does not separate the family of God and the love of Christ. We are still united with each other, even beyond death.





Matt. 17:3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30 - Jesus converses with ';deceased'; Moses and Elijah. They are more alive than the saints on earth.





Matt. 22:32; Mark 12:27; Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead. The living on earth and in heaven are one family.





Luke 15:7,10 – if the angels and saints experience joy in heaven over our repentance, then they are still connected to us and are aware of our behavior.





3/ Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.





Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, ';be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect.'; We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.





Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.





Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.





Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God's graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.





The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:





As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.


1 Cor. 3:15 – “if any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” The phrase for ';suffer loss'; in the Greek is ';zemiothesetai.'; The root word is ';zemioo'; which also refers to punishment. The construction “zemiothesetai” is used in Ex. 21:22 and Prov. 19:19 which refers to punishment (from the Hebrew “anash” meaning “punish” or “penalty”). Hence, this verse proves that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, but the person is still saved. This cannot mean heaven (there is no punishment in heaven) and this cannot mean hell (the possibility of expiation no longer exists and the person is not saved).





1 Cor. 3:15 – further, Paul writes “he himself will be saved, ';but only'; (or “yet so”) as through fire.” “He will be saved” in the Greek is “sothesetai” (which means eternal salvation). The phrase ';but only'; (or “yet so”) in the Greek is ';houtos'; which means ';in the same manner.'; This means that man is both eternally rewarded and eternally saved in the same manner by fire.





1 Cor. 3:13 - when Paul writes about God revealing the quality of each man's work by fire and purifying him, this purification relates to his sins (not just his good works). Protestants, in attempting to disprove the reality of purgatory, argue that Paul was only writing about rewarding good works, and not punishing sins (because punishing and purifying a man from sins would be admitting that there is a purgatory).


4/ Mary's role in the Church is inseparable from her union with Christ and flows directly from it. ';This union of the mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ's virginal conception up to his death';; it is made manifest above all at the hour of his Passion:





Thus the Blessed Virgin advanced in her pilgrimage of faith, and faithfully persevered in her union with her Son unto the cross. There she stood, in keeping with the divine plan, enduring with her only begotten Son the intensity of his suffering, joining herself with his sacrifice in her mother's heart, and lovingly consenting to the immolation of this victim, born of her: to be given, by the same Christ Jesus dying on the cross, as a mother to his disciple, with these words: ';Woman, behold your son.';


The Gospel reveals to us how Mary prays and intercedes in faith. At Cana, the mother of Jesus asks her son for the needs of a wedding feast; this is the sign of another feast - that of the wedding of the Lamb where he gives his body and blood at the request of the Church, his Bride. It is at the hour of the New Covenant, at the foot of the cross, that Mary is heard as the Woman, the new Eve, the true ';Mother of all the living.';





5/ already taken care of


6/


I'm not done yet
Let's say the Lords Prayer that you might spend your time more productively
Your protests invoke a false doctrine called ';sola scriptura'; which is not biblical.





1. Yes those powers were given to the Apostles. Where in the Bible does it tell us that it ended with the Apostles? Why would Christ give something as important as that to only 12 people, and then have that power fade out with their deaths? They also had the power to baptize, and yet others baptize today and you have no problem with that. The Holy Spirit was ONLY given to the Apostles as well, would you say that ended with their deaths as well? You have no basis for choosing some things the Apostles were given and did as still being valid today and discarding other things that don't fit you beliefs.





Whenever Christ mentions the authority to ';loose and bind'; it is also the only time he mentions the Church. This means that power was given to Peter (first) and the Apostles, in conjunction with their alignment with the Church Christ established.


http://www.scripturecatholic.com/confess…


http://www.scripturecatholic.com/primacy…





2. So? What it tells us is that Saints are in heaven and they are praising God. Paul tells us that intercessory prayer is good and pleasing to God. Mary and the Saints are not dead, they have salvation and eternal life in Christ. Asking any member of the Body of Christ to pray for us is ';pleasing to God.'; It does not say that only the prayers of the sinful living on earth are pleasing, it does not differentiate in the Bible. We know that the disciples of Christ and his Mother Mary, must be in heaven with him. They are one with us in Christ and therefore, can pray for us. It makes perfect sense.


http://www.scripturecatholic.com/blessed…


http://www.scripturecatholic.com/saints.…





3. It says ';many of those'; who sleep in the earth...not that


ALL will sleep in the earth. When the time of tribulation begins, those who die will sleep until Christ comes again. But we know that others did not. Christ descended into hell and released the souls who had awaited him. Obviously they were not ';asleep in the earth.';


http://www.scripturecatholic.com/purgato…





4. Luke 1:30-51 does not refute praying to Mary. I can't even imagine why you think it does.


5. We don't pray for the dead to be saved. They cannot be saved. But we do pray for the dead who ARE saved, but in purgatory, that their time in purgatory will be less. All souls in purgatory are already saved. This is and always has been the teaching of the Church. So you are not telling us anything we didn't already know.





6. Wrong again in your interpretation of Luke 22:19.





7. Right, when an adult is baptized they must proclaim belief. When an infant is baptized, their promise is made by their parents on their behalf and the grace of baptism is conferred through the parents to the infant. When the child is old enough he/she can make a decision to follow Christ or not. During the Acts of the Apostles, all the ';new converts to Christianity'; were adults because it was a new faith. There were no babies born into Christian families yet. But we do know households were baptized, and certainly this included children. Additionally, we know the early Christians practiced infant baptism, certainly they knew what to do since they had been taught by the Apostles directly. One more thing, Paul compares baptism to circumcision. Infants were brought into the covenant the Jewish people had with God and the sign was circumcision. This was ordered by God. Any man who converted to the Jewish faith had to proclaim the faith and be circumcised, but obviously infants didn't. Paul says that baptism replaces circumcision. God required infants to be circumcized, so it stands to reason that infants should be baptized and brought into the new covenant. Plus, no where in the Bible is the baptizing of infants forbidden.


http://www.scripturecatholic.com/baptism…





%26lt;%26lt;Can you show any verses in the Holy Words of God telling the dead one to pray for their relative that still on earth?%26gt;%26gt;





Can you show any verses that say those who have gone before us and are alive in Christ, cannot pray for us? John 3:16 says ';For whosoever believes in me will not die, but have eternal life.'; Those who believe in him have eternal life, why do you say they do not? Why do you say they are dead?





All of your ';protests'; are classic, old and successfully refuted over and over by the Catholic Church.
One question at a time. I do not have time to read a book Chris!


You will find ALL your answers here:http://www.cwo.com/~pentrack/catholic/ap…
Please remember that the Bible remains a Catholic Holy Book, compiled, written, and certified by the Catholic Church, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and reflecting only authentic Catholic beliefs and practices.





Anyone who attempts to interpret it in any other way is simply mistaken.





http://douglawrence.wordpress.com/
I'm not clear on the purpose of your long argument.





Was your purpose to show us your superior knowledge of the scriptures?





Was it an attempt to put down your brothers and sisters in Christ?





Was it offered in an attempt to change the minds of those you are attacking?





I recognize your ability to search the scriptures and to type. I understand that you feel strongly enough about this to argue, but I do not feel the Love of Christ in your words.





If you do not love...........
1. Confession


Some claim that confessing to a priest is not biblical. In John 20, we read of Christ appearing to the disciples on Easter Sunday. He breathed on the apostles giving them the authority to forgive, and not to forgive. This means they had to hear the sins in order to forgive/not forgive. Jesus then says “as the Father has sent me, so I send you”. This means the apostles are to continue Christ’s mission, the essence of which is the forgiveness of sins. In 2 Corinthians, St. Paul describes the apostles as ambassadors of Christ’s work of reconciliation. In the Epistle of James we read that the presbyters (priests) are called to pray for the sick and forgive their sins. Why are priests called to perform this task? Obviously, the priests have an authority that ordinary Christians do not.





It is clear that Christ gave the apostles the power to forgive sins.











The Sacrament of Reconciliation is one of the seven sacraments Christ gave his church. The Sacrament of Reconciliation is also known as the Sacrament of Penance or Confession. This sacrament can set us free from our sins, and from the burden of guilt that comes along with our sins. Through the Sacrament of Reconciliation – confession – we are brought back into union with God. Our sins separate and damage our relationship with our Lord, and it is through this most powerful sacrament that our relationship with the Lord is repaired and strengthened. Through the Sacrament of Reconciliation we can walk more closely with the Lord once again, without the burden of our sins weighing us down and distancing our relationship with God.





Some ask why Catholics confess to a priest rather than just going straight to God. Some claim that confessing to a priest is not biblical. But that is not true.





We confess to a priest because that is the way Jesus instigated the sacrament. It is at his command that we confess to one another. When we sin against the Father our sins also affect our Christian family. Confessing sins to a priest is something that was a universal practice and never debated in the Early Church.





Jesus himself was able to heal not only the physically sick, but the spiritually sick as well. Christ had the power to forgive sins (see Matthew 9:1-8; Mark 2:5-12).





He passed on that power to forgive sins in his name to his Apostles.





';Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again, I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything for which they are to pray, it shall be granted to them by my heavenly Father.'; (Matthew 18:18-19)





';Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I sent you.'; And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, ';Receive the Holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.'; (John 20:21-23)





Jesus entrusted his Church with the power of forgiving sins through this most wonderful sacrament. The priest is simply the one who acts in persona Christi (in the person of Christ) in the confessional, but it is our Lord who forgives our sins. The priest grants absolution (sets us free from our sins) using the power Jesus entrusted to his Church. It is through Christ, however, that our sins are forgiven.





St. Paul tells us, ';And all this is from God, who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and given us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting their trespasses against them and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. So we are ambassadors for Christ, as if God were appealing through us.'; (2 Corinthians 5: 18-20)





Does this mean that we shouldn’t speak and pray directly to God and express sorrow for our sins? Not at all! In fact for daily faults that is exactly what we should be doing. But for more serious offenses, for grave and mortal sins, we must repent and confess through the Sacrament of Reconciliation because that is what Christ commands us to do.








Reconciliation (also known as Confession and Penance): Penance is a Sacrament in which the sins committed after Baptism are forgiven.


Biblical references: Matt 9:2-8; Jn 20:22-23; 2 Cor 5:17-20; James 5:13-16;


Matt 18:18; 1 Jn 5:16





2.Intersession of Saints








The Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us.





Thus in Psalm 103, we pray, ';Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!'; (Ps. 103:20-21). And in Psalm 148 we pray, ';Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!'; (Ps. 148:1-2)





Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In Revelation, John sees that ';the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, eac
You really should break this up into separate questions. I would like to give you detailed answers but Y!A now limits the lengths of our answers.





In addition to the many good biblical references addressed in other answers, the Catholic Church does not use Holy Scripture as the only basis of doctrine. It could not. The early Catholic church existed before and during the time that the New Testament was written.





I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now. But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming. (John 16:12-13)





Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours. (2 Thessalonians 2:15)





We instruct you, brothers, in the name of (our) Lord Jesus Christ,to shun any brother who conducts himself in a disorderly way and not according to the tradition they received from us. (2 Thessalonians 3:6)





I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold fast to the traditions, just as I handed them on to you. (1 Corinthians 11:2)





There were hundreds of Christian writings during the first and second centuries. Which New Testament writings would become official was not fully decided until about 400 C.E.





Catholics believe that the Holy Spirit was guiding the early church (and is guiding the church today) to make the correct choices about things like:


• The Holy Trinity (which is also only hinted at in the Bible)


• Going to church on Sunday instead of Saturday (which is actually directly against one of the Ten Commandments)


• The Communion of Saints


• Which writings include in the New Testament?





Things that are even more modern like


• Slavery is bad. Slavery is never declared evil in the Bible. This was one of the justifications for slavery in the Confederate States.


• Democracy is good. The Bible states that either God should be the leader of the nation like Israel before the kings or kings should be the leader, ';Give to Caesar that which is Caesar's.'; This was talked about a lot during the American Revolution.





This second source of doctrine is called Apostolic Tradition.





Do Christians who do not allow the continuing guiding force of the Holy Spirit to make their beliefs more and more perfect, still endorse slavery as Colossians 3:22 commands, ';Slaves, obey your human masters in everything';?





For more information, see the Catechism of the Catholic Church, sections 80 and following: http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1s…





With love in Christ.
The Catholic doctrine is not false. Au contraire, my fine friend, it is the Catholic church that is going to save the world, including your sorry butt. When all is said and done, we could be fast friends.





I can never understand how other Christians who claim to love Christ hate their own brothers in Christ.





Christ, this I know, loves me. It goes deep, and He has never ever steered me wrong. If I end up in a place I shouldn't be, it is because I was the one who strayed from Him and His most wonderful church on this planet Earth.





Do not let hatred cloud your view of the one true thing in this life.
Let me guess, you are demonstrating eisegesis to demonstrate the absurdity of such practice. Or perhaps you have no training in biblical exegesis and the Scriptures are confounding your judgment. Perhaps theological concepts are beyond your intellectual ability.





Just a suggestion, try using all of Scriptures instead of proof texting to prove your ridiculous assumptions. Use a little scholarship. Perhaps you are blinded in understanding by a spirit of hatred and contention. God bless!





In Christ


Fr. Joseph
If you would like more answers, consider asking around this site as well...





http://christianforums.com/forumdisplay.…
My goodness, aren't you impressive.





The Scriptural basis for all Catholic doctrines, including the ones for which you've chosen to cherry-pick Bible verses in an attempt to refute, can be found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. May I suggest that you take the time to look these up at your leisure from that resource? Scripture verses are heavily cross-referenced throughout the Catechism. I've provided the link below to save you the trouble of a Google search.





That is, if you're truly concerned about the Scriptural foundation for these doctrines (perhaps you're considering a conversion? I can't think of very many other legitimate reasons for Christians to grill other Christians like this.) However, if you're just posting this because you think Catholics have to answer to you, get in line and take a number. You're hardly the first to think you're an authority because you've read into the Bible what you want to find there.





To put it bluntly: If you think Catholic doctrines are ';false';, then by all means don't become Catholic. Tend to your own walk with Christ; we have no problem with answering to God, but this is one Catholic (and former Baptist) who doesn't feel obliged to ';reconcile'; anything to every prejudiced nitwit who comes along and demands it.
Great!!! Which monastery did you come from. Just joking. Impressive research.