I've proven Christian doctrine to be false in three sentences -- can anyone help me to make it any more clear?

1. If god gave Satan free will, Satan would not rebel against god unless god made an error in judgment.





2. But if Satan rebelled by his own error, then it is impossible for god to be perfect.





3. On the other hand, if god did not give Satan free will, then god himself bears the responsibility for all evil.








Okay, I understand that this logically checkmates the whole foundation of Christianity, but can anyone here provide any other simple concepts to help Christians understand that they've been lied to?I've proven Christian doctrine to be false in three sentences -- can anyone help me to make it any more clear?
People will tell you God KNEW Satan would rebel... which defeats their point entirely, God is soley responsible for evil.





'Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.


Is God able to prevent evil, but not willing? Then is he malevolent.


Is God both willing and able? Then whence cometh evil?


Is God neither willing nor able? Then why call him God.'I've proven Christian doctrine to be false in three sentences -- can anyone help me to make it any more clear?
You only proved that the new testament and the old testament should be separate books. And if any that knows the bible would have already acknowledged this.Because it is only written in the new testament that satan is against god but in the old he listened to everything god told him to do. That's whats wrong with the world now they believe if they discredit christianity they have proven there is no God.
In all three of your points you have written 'god' with a lower case g, while capitalizing 'Satan'. Your question betrays your obvious bias. Pt. 1. God gave satan free will, for without free will, satan couldn't have made an error in judgment and rebelled.


Pt. 2. Only a fool would require compulsory love. The relationship was voluntary. The choice is a reflection of free will, not poor design.


Pt. 3. Maybe so, but you're right, it does need to be more clear.





If you were to read the bible you would find that the foundation of christianity is Christ. a.k.a. 'The Rock';. You never mentioned Christ in your question. Checkmate? You haven't even made your first move.
I am a devout Orthodox Christian in full communion, I majored in theology at a prominent Roman Catholic university, and I do not believe in a personal being called ';Satan.';





So I would love to know how your three sentences prove Christian doctrine to be false, when they don't even deal with doctrines that are universal in Christianity? This is like proving that Atheism is false by refuting Communism.





Incidentally, Satan isn't even mentioned in any of the creeds or confessions of the Christian faith. How could any of this even remotely constitute the foundation of Christian beliefs?
I am, unlike so many of my fellow Christians, a free-thinker.


I've weighed my options and decided upon Christianity as the way to live my life.


However, even as a free-thinker, these statements still make no sense.


In order for this argument to work, you must assume everything God creates is perfect. But, even according to our Bible, everything God creates are not perfect.


In fact, the majority of things He creates is imperfect.


He obviously didn't create Satan perfect.


Free will kicks in, and BAM.


Satan's evil.


God is good.


As you see in the world we live in, every good thing must have an opposition.


It keeps things in order.





Your arguments are flawed and marred.


Next.
Hmmm. Perhaps God simply feels that allowing Satan to exist is the lessor of two evils, the other being the denial of free will. Obviously if there is free will, there will be evil, so the only true way to remove it would be to remove our free will, which God may think is not the right thing to do. What point is there to our existence if we aren't free to do as we choose? God wants us to love, and love is not love if it is forced, it must be embraced.
All three of your sentences are wrong and prove only one thing, You are misinformed and lack the maturity to reason as an educated adult. You believe what you want not what is right. Cant your kind find a different forum for your nonsense? You have been lied to by the devil. And isn't he clever? What, are you in the fifth grade or what?
God is not perfect.





Responsibility for evil belongs to the deity that exercised free will to create it.





There is plenty of evil on this planet, but god has given us the tools to eliminate it. We must find the tools and do it ourself. God is not going to do it for us.
Dude, you really can't believe this.


And your ';thoughts'; contradict each other.


You should spend more time reading the Bible and Less time criticizing it. For Satan is the author of confusion.





READ the Bible and prove me wrong.


The Bible and the recorded history and documents of man constantly prove each other to be true with the exception of ';MYTHs'; and ';legends';... nothing else fails
Question 1. Yes God gave Satan free will, but Satan chose to oppose God, as he wanted to be worshipped , he was jealous of Gods sovereignty, but why would his rebelling make God imperfect.


Question 2. Satan rebelled at his own choice, but why on earth does that make God imperfect, He created millions of angels who to this day remain perfect and loyal to God.Also God made Jesus who remained perfect even when he was on the earth, but who now is in heaven with God., and still perfect !!


Question 3 Again God did give Satan free will, like all of us,and no God is not capable of screwing up,and up till now has never screwed up, unlike Satan, who hasn't stopped screwing up,and is trying ever so harder now, that his time is fast approaching.Actually God cannot lie, but Satan is called the Father of the lie.
i see satans childern are at it again.


always trying to disprove GOD word..arent you.


well as a christian i wont answer this as if i do you wouldnt understand it anyway.


maybe you need to pray to GOD to save your soul and open your eyes to the real truth.





John 3:16
Read this from a ';Christian'; he managed to undo christianity himself.





';Maybe if woman had more faith in Christ, they could see how he can do onto them as he did to Mary, mother of God. Sex is a man made tool for sin and lust.';


http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;…





Please note my response:


';';Maybe if woman had more faith in Christ, they could see how he can do onto them as he did to Mary';


And honestly if what you say is true, that god could use the holy spirit to bring about another messiah/christ or another son, then sending the first, having him sacrificed, then resurrecting him, would have been pointless for apparently he lives on. You have managed to single handedly UNDO christianity in one night!';
1. satan was created a good angel. He turned bad because he wanted worship for himself. He knew that Jehovah God would refuse to share with him, so he approached Jesus ..and Jesus told him this...


(Luke 4:8) In reply Jesus said to him: “It is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’”





Thus proving that Jehovah and Jesus are NOT the same personality.





Satan WAS perfect and Jehovah's other creation, Jesus IS perfect. So Jehovah IS perfect. Proverbs 8;22-31





2. Satan DID rebel by his own decision...using his free will...


'If God had created Satan with no free will, then all you would have is an automaton or robot, that only does things it is programmed to do...and in that case, God would be responsible...but the case is the opposite...











3. But God DID give Satan free will.








Please put that in your ';logic' pipe.
i think you just lost almost all of the christians after the first statement.





they are brainwashed to believe what they hear is the truth, they are not taught think for themselves.
Theology is not law, who can't interrogate and explain anything as you wish inside the witness box..
you're a sad little man...none of those sentences even makes sense...terrible reasoning.
Thank you.
You've bombed the myth!
Mmm...Firstly God is something we can not understand (I am referring to the Christian God) What He is, where He came from, His age, gender, etc. What we can understand is that God is One and there is no other personality like Him.


Satan was created perfectly by a perfect God and given a most precious gift, free choice. For who knows how long Lucifer (Satan's name before he fell) served God with perfect love and obedience. Remember God is a person of perfect order. Perfect order requires rules does it not. We do not know the rules given to the angels. They may have been similar to the ten commandments. We are told from scripture that Lucifer was perfect until iniquity was found in him.


Where did this iniquity come from? Did God place this iniquity in Lucifer's mind?


Let me tell a story and ask you this question to help answer this puzzle:


A mother gives birth to a child. It is an adorable and beautiful baby that grows up to be a model citizen. This model citizen gets employed by a large company and soon works his way up the ranks for his good efforts.


Finally there is one position he can't have, CEO. This position belongs to the companies founder and owner. This model citizen is content with this. Yet after time goes by he asks himself why he shouldn't be able to help the CEO make decisions and help out with executive orders, after all, he is the best employee. He keeps these thoughts to himself. Then one day his boss notices a change in the employees attitude and he asks him what is wrong. The employee says that he would like to help the CEO run the company because of the position he holds as 2ic, he should be able to do that. The boss kindly tells him no, and the employee leaves feeling somewhat dejected.


His thoughts on this matter grow stronger and stronger until one day the employee demands that his position be upgraded to that equal to his boss. At this point the boss can only see one option, letting his employee go to pursue his interests somewhere else.


After all this, may I ask you is it the mothers fault her child turned out so horrible?


No, God did not make a mistake, Lucifer did by treasuring thoughts of self exaltation. You see, only God is worthy of worship and adoration because of His exclusive ability to create life. Everything we see in the universe was made at His command. There are countless other worlds out there inhabited by beings that have not transgressed Gods law and live in perfect peace without war. This world was deceived into believing that disobeying God's law would bring freedom, when in fact it brings the opposite. Look around you and ask yourself, does this look like a free world, or does this look like a world duped into disobedience and now we are seeing the result of rejecting God's instruction? War, rape, murder, theft, starvation, disease, child abuse and so much more. If there is a God, do you think this is the world He wants for us, or is this a world under the control of Satan, the enemy of God, hell bent on destroying as many souls as he can while there is still but a little time left.


Remember, God is not responsible for this mess, but He did take responsibility for it by sending Jesus as a once for all replacement for us so that we do not have to spend eternity dead, but rather spend eternity living with Him in peace, love and safety.


Don't know about you, but I'll place all my eggs in the Jesus basket.
The premise of your logic is faulty. You make the assumption that Satan cannot make an error in judgement through the exercise of his own free will. Having free will does not mean it is not possible to make a mistake. God's perfection is not dependent upon whether or not Satan or anyone else rebels against Him. It's called FREE WILL because you can FREELY CHOOSE TO DO EVIL.
1.no god gave free will to lucifer like all other angels but their is always temptation and some ';angels'; also have weakness and strengths he became the top prayer delivery angel and was influenced to the ';lust'; of having people pray to him and owning their souls and god knew he would go over to the dark side because of the cookies.(for god is all knowing lots of people forget this one lol)





2.lucifer now became satan by his own will and doomed himself to eternal pain in fire , but say now a world with out satan people would never understand the truth of god and Truly worship him .(Like who would you worship if only god was their, but when theirs a choice you are happier.)(I think god is selfish but with a heart)so satan is only here so that we know good and bad not only good.(and don't forget the old testament gives good examples god sacrifices humans for others to come to his side)





3. satan has free will so that sentence is void.





4. yes i know their is no four but i felt like typing four because it might confuse somebody who actually read the whole thing.
1. Suppose that God values love given freely more than required obedience. If that is true, God gives everyone free will so that some will choose to love him freely, but knowing that some will choose to not love him. Your first point is rejected.





2. I assume here you are implying that Satan, as a creation of a perfect God, should be perfect. Yet Satan is a lesser being than God, as are we. If God was to create any being less than himself, it is necessary for that being to be less than perfect. Therefore, God can be perfect while Satan has the capacity for error. Your second point is rejected.





3. Since the first two points were rejected, and there seems to be no reason to doubt that God gave Satan free will, your third point is moot.





Justin's ';false dilemma'; only occurs in the second part of his argument, where having decided that Satan is not perfect, that therefore God is good. We can argue whether or not God is good some other time, but even if we take out that part of Justin's answer, he has still proven your arguments wrong.





--------------------------------------…


Edit: Most people say that Satan chose not to love God freely because he wanted God's worship for himself. Exactly why he did it is immaterial, all that matters is that it was possible for him to do so. If it was not possible for Satan to choose to not love God, then he didn't have free will to begin with. Free will means that Satan could choose whatever he wanted, it doesn't mean that Satan would choose logically, or would choose how we would choose.





By definition, any being that is less than God cannot be perfect. So if you want, fine, I will admit that God cannot create a being less than himself that is perfect. He also cannot create a rock too big for him to lift, nor can he do anything else which violates logic. If one thing is clear from looking at the universe, it is that God loves order and logic. If I suppose that God can violate the laws of logic whenever he wants, that pretty makes it pointless to talk about him, since such a God could never be known.





So I concede that God cannot create a being less than himself that is perfect. By making that concession, I have lost nothing. God is still supreme, and more importantly he still exists. Care to respond?





--------------------------------------…


Edit #2: In regards to the bread analogy... Since you're fond of linking to pages describing informal logical fallacies, I'm sure you can find a page about the fallacy of false analogies. Bread does not have free will.





On the other hand, if you know of bread that has free will, I would love to see it. If it has free will, would it be immoral to sell it on ebay? Imagine how much that would be worth.
Do you know what they call a female moth? A myth!